Real Traditional Spey rod
- Thread starter speyman
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corribspeycaster
New member
The best are carron followed by robert gillespies turas custom , an incredible rod if you want more details let me know, they are wonderful fishing and casting tolls deisgned by one of the best. no frills or gimmicks just a very powerful progressive spey casting rod that launches a carron line a country mile and equally good with a shooting head.
I was lucky enough to have a cast with the new (actually not out yet) Hardy Sintrix 15ft 1in double hander last week and it was superb. Powerful yet responsive and progressive - certainly no poker and easy to cast with.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'traditional' though? I hope you dont mean dumping lots of line in the water in a heap and bullying it out!
Was that not the traditional way?
Personally I prefer the Trevor Morgan Javelin to the Carrons.
Cheers
Colin
I'm not sure what you mean by 'traditional' though? I hope you dont mean dumping lots of line in the water in a heap and bullying it out!
Was that not the traditional way?
Personally I prefer the Trevor Morgan Javelin to the Carrons.
Cheers
Colin
corribspeycaster
New member
javelin is a good line but not a traditional long belly or even mid, if the casters skill is high enough there should be no dumping of a lot line in the water, i can manage a 75 foot head waist deep or higher in fast water, short lines have their uses but on a large river from late spring until early summer 65 plus spey lines are a joy to use, they are also the only way to develop true technique for use with any system, if you stay with short lines it is harder to learn how to handle mid or long bellies, if i need a short line it is normally for sunk line fishing in which case I would use my tay/tummel shooting heads cut to about 50 foot, the javelin is a good line if you prefer short heads.
If anyone would like to try next cast spey lines on a free trial they can pm me.
i have the following that they can borrow.
They are excellent.
WinterAuthority70-10/11 head - 870grain at 70feet - works very well
with 14'6" and up rods
WinterAuthority55-10/11 full line - 880 grain at 60feet - works very
well with 14' and up rods
WinterAuthority45-10/11 head - 760grain at 52feet - works very well
with 14' or 15' rods
FallFavorite45-9/10 head - 700grain at 49feet - works very well with
14' or 15' rods
FallFavorite70-9/10 head - 790grains at 68feet - works very well with
14'6" and up rods
CHAMP1516 () i will ask for this cut to about that length for distance casting people
If anyone would like to try next cast spey lines on a free trial they can pm me.
i have the following that they can borrow.
They are excellent.
WinterAuthority70-10/11 head - 870grain at 70feet - works very well
with 14'6" and up rods
WinterAuthority55-10/11 full line - 880 grain at 60feet - works very
well with 14' and up rods
WinterAuthority45-10/11 head - 760grain at 52feet - works very well
with 14' or 15' rods
FallFavorite45-9/10 head - 700grain at 49feet - works very well with
14' or 15' rods
FallFavorite70-9/10 head - 790grains at 68feet - works very well with
14'6" and up rods
CHAMP1516 () i will ask for this cut to about that length for distance casting people
Hi Corrib,
I would not thank you for a 75ft head. I have watched spey casters struggle with their casting the world over! Why? because they are trying to aerialise 65 or 75ft heads - as have been recommended to them by some shop.
The upshot is that they lay too much line on the water and cannot get it back out again. And especially so if they are deep wading – which people unwisely do – especially when they can’t reach where they want to – so they move closer. A nightmare scenario but all too common.
It is little wonder that short Skagit lines have become so popular – they are simply much easier to cast. (Although personally I find them clunky/brutal – and don’t like them much).
Even in talented casting hands there are very few rivers wide enough and easy enough to wade (with plenty of room behind) that allow a full head to be worked.
I once discussed this with an experienced angler who swore by 75ft heads – so we met up and had a very interesting session. It transpired that he brought the thick end of the head all the way to his reel. In other words he shaved 15ft off the head to start with! Which meant of course he was really fishing with a 60ft head! I wonder how many 75 footers do this
Let’s also look at cast length. I suggest that a 30 yard cast {90ft}. (from person to fly) is long enough to fish with anywhere in the world. At that length, or less, you can easily maintain control over the fly – the cast should be basically effortless and a joy to perform. Yet far enough to reach almost anywhere – effectively.
So let look at that in more detail.
Rod = 15ft.
Leader 13ft (including poly-tip if used).
We have already reached 28ft out of 90ft!
So that leaves another 62 ft to find.
In fishing situations, at the end of each cast, we bring in about 10ft of line that we will shoot. This fishes the fly in an attractive manner late in the cast, breaks the surface tension and helps lift the fly a little in the water column.
Ok that leaves us 52 ft of head. Perfect! And that is really very easily manageable even by weekenders.
Why, therefore would I ever want to use anything longer than a 50ft head? Well I can tell you I dont
To summarise.
10ft in hand {ready to shoot}. OPTIONAL
15ft within rod
52ft head
13ft leader.
= 80ft to 90ft (30 yards)
So what happens when we change to a 75ft head (in the hands of a pro).
10ft in hand {ready to shoot}. OPTIONAL
15ft within rod
75ft head
13ft leader.
= 103 to 113ft (38 yards)
Does anyone really fish the fly that far away?
williegunn
New member
Yes, constantly, I use the Carron 85, with the colour change arond the rod tip.
You should get yourself up to the Ness or Lower Spey. I might have a space on the Ness next year.
Hi Corrib,
This is impressive - very few can! Question, do you hold you hands above your head when you do this?
And do you not find the rod really struggling with the 'grip' of the water when you try and lift the line off? Or are you using a line that is quite 'light' for the rod?
Cheers
Colin
Hi WG,
You must have back muscles like Big Daddy and a rod like Bruce and Walker on speed
Thanks for the invite on the Ness - I have fished it a couple of times - well at least my side of it. The other half was easily fished - from a boat ;-)
85ft + 13ft (how long is your leader-rig?) + 10ft (shooting - do you shoot?) + 15ft rod = 123ft !! (41 yards)
You surely dont use that rig on middle-Spey? You'll be hitting WM on the nose!
Cheers
Colin
williegunn
New member
No it is all in the technique, make both hands work, that's why its a two handed rod.Hi WG,
You must have back muscles like Big Daddy and a rod like Bruce and Walker on speed
A boat in the Little Isle, Mill Stream or McIntyre, that would cause somewhat of a scene
Yes I shoot, couple of rods lengths, cannot stand having yards of running line all around me, unless stripping a collie dog or something similar.
corribspeycaster
New member
The system of spey casting I use is call fulcrum fly casting used by many of the carron team and other top fly casters the world over, the line i use is a carron 9/10 which are heavy for their line rating closer to a 10 /11 by any other manufacturer, if proper mechanics of this system are used there should be no problem lifting and casting a 75 foot head or longer spey line whilst wading, the top hand remains as the fulrum, the only thing that differs is the stroke length the longer the line the longer the stroke, the rod spring needs to be fully compressed and well back as that is where a beginner would struggle with a long line, once the casting cycle is understood and correct stroke length and power application is applied true spey casting technique is developed, once this is obtained the transition to any line system is simple, but it is a terrible thing to watch some fishing a short heavy line down a pool with poor technique, also many people are unable to manage the extra running line with some very short head lines. 65 foot lines make a very good option for any one learning and are certainly easiliy managed, if there is too much still within the casting cycle any line will fail.
There is a excellent clips on you tube look up either andrew toft or robert gillespie the latter explains fulcrum flycasting brilliantly two of the best casters in the world.
And they sure do! Clearly you guys are pros. How long a cast would you think the majority of salmon fly fishers do?
WG you must see the typical visiting salmon fisher all of the time? What is the normal length they cast?
In my experience I would say most people cast about 20 yards (and it aint pretty to watch). These are not beginners BTW - just normal 'a few times a year' salmon fishers. That length, to catch salmon, is of course far enough. Now if that is true (and you may disagree) then why on earth have they bought a 75 or even 65ft head?
I dont really understand why we 'need' the word 'fulcrum' in normal spey casting but I did find these videos from the two very good spey casters you mentioned.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSYnDzuwIac]Climbing Curve 1 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GrXvTRwR-k]Climbing Curve 2 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r4R61P38kA]Climbing Curve 3 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewSpeyCasting#p/u/1/KcAy6qbals0]AndrewSpeyCasting's Channel - YouTube[/ame]
corribspeycaster
New member
The term Fulcrum is extremely important, when that is understood bottom hand dominated speycasting falls in to place, the top hand remains as the fulcrum it is one of these most important pieces of double handed fly casting fundamentals that need to be learnt , the problems you mention are associated with top hand dominated casters, the fff principles also explain this very well, nothing difficult or complicated about the term fulcrum , many of these principles are taught by students of the legendry fly caster peter anderson, for any body wanting to improve their spey casting I would strongly advise looking up fulcrum fly casting principles/speycasting, i am not here to promote anyones websites but you will two pieces of superb information on how to improve you speycasting and that is with any length line.
Bets Wishes Corrib
Bets Wishes Corrib
That's really interesting but is not what happens in reality. (at least that's what I think!)
A "fulcrum" or "pivot" point DOES exist on the rod 'lever' - but it isnt at the top hand!
Look very closely at the RG video. The pivot point is about half way between the hands. The top hand moves towards the target about the same distance as the bottom hand moves away from the target. The cross over (fulcrum) is between them. This is how double-handed casting has been since time began.
Casters do of course vary this. Some have the pivot point closer to their bottom hand (top hand dominated) and others e.g. Scandi have it closer to the top hand (underhand Spey casting). But it is always somewhere between. What you see in the best spey casters (like above) is pretty well in the middle - a nice sweet style that works in a balanced way.
It is those that push the rod (both hands going in same direction) that really suffer with low tip speed.
Now I'm thinking about it (and that's hard for me) perhaps mechanically the closer the pivot point is to the butt of the rod the faster the tip will travel – but on a long casting stroke and a long rod that would take some strength! (you can test this mechanically with a pencil).
Here's Henrik (Underhand)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V1vxR2cr0"]Master the Scandinavian Speycast with Henrik Mortensen - YouTube[/ame]
And then the Champ (ex)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lNyfHGb3FM"]World Champion Spey Caster (Gordon Armstrong) - YouTube[/ame]
Having watched these again - the only thing that seems to vary is the distance that the hands move in relation to one another - short stroke or long and of course how close the hands are together on the rod (wide apart for long stroke / close for short). The pivot point seems to be always fairly central between the hands.
Cheers
Colin
corribspeycaster
New member
One of the finest explanations on fulcrum fly casting ive seen written.
Andrew Tofts Tutorials
The top hand is the fulcrum the lower hand is the lever I cant see any other any more rational explanation for using a double handed fly rod
Andrew Tofts Tutorials
The top hand is the fulcrum the lower hand is the lever I cant see any other any more rational explanation for using a double handed fly rod
williegunn
New member
You are pretty optimistic with your lengths, the better the beat the worse the caster and they still catch fish. The running line is often referred to as the backing; I have watched them fish with Windcutters and the colour change remains on the reel!
The standard technique on one of the best beats is, badly cast 15 yards so it all ends up in a heap, allow the current to straigten the line, then strike as soon as a fish takes. It works!
lol. I love it!
Mind you when they have pools like Delene of Wester Elchies at their disposal I can see how they can catch fish. I haven’t fished it for 20 years - but can visualise it clearly it now! Taking my heap of line, then slowly unravelling it and swinging it around with such majesty
Corrib, I'll contact Andrew T and see if he really believes what he says about the top hand being the fulcrum. Study those videos! Remember the fulcrum or pivot point does not move - it just pivots.